this sound more like a Gnostic approach to the nature of God .This approach has been there since the beginning of the Christian congragation.The sense of rightousness is inherent to you because you have been given a counscience and an internal moral code by a Source .Objective moral values have no meaning ,or your sense of injustice without a Moral Law giver.
raymond frantz
JoinedPosts by raymond frantz
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Reconciling animals and suffering
by Pacopoolio inwe know that christians generally go through ridiculous mental voodoo to explain why a benevolent god allows human suffering, and none of it makes any sense, or is filled with bunk logic.
that's what happens when you try and retrofit a jewish "god is good and evil" religion into a benevolent religion.. .
one of the biggest "trips" to a jw/christian in continuing this line of thought is asking them why god would create animals simply to suffer and die, then, after they try to blame everything on adam (whose brain god supposedly created, and who put him into the exact situation that had an influence on that brain to cause him to sin).
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Reconciling animals and suffering
by Pacopoolio inwe know that christians generally go through ridiculous mental voodoo to explain why a benevolent god allows human suffering, and none of it makes any sense, or is filled with bunk logic.
that's what happens when you try and retrofit a jewish "god is good and evil" religion into a benevolent religion.. .
one of the biggest "trips" to a jw/christian in continuing this line of thought is asking them why god would create animals simply to suffer and die, then, after they try to blame everything on adam (whose brain god supposedly created, and who put him into the exact situation that had an influence on that brain to cause him to sin).
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raymond frantz
maybe the question pacopoolio is not what is right in your eyes but what is more viable in God's eyes .Maybe we live in a universe that complex biological ecosystems are viable in that order .We are dealing with an inteligence vastly superior than our understanding or sense of justice.
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Reconciling animals and suffering
by Pacopoolio inwe know that christians generally go through ridiculous mental voodoo to explain why a benevolent god allows human suffering, and none of it makes any sense, or is filled with bunk logic.
that's what happens when you try and retrofit a jewish "god is good and evil" religion into a benevolent religion.. .
one of the biggest "trips" to a jw/christian in continuing this line of thought is asking them why god would create animals simply to suffer and die, then, after they try to blame everything on adam (whose brain god supposedly created, and who put him into the exact situation that had an influence on that brain to cause him to sin).
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raymond frantz
Also God in order to create viable compex ecosystems that can sustain life had to introduce predators ,otherwise such ecosystems wouldn't have been viable.
Animals are part of a broader ecosystem in which the human drama is played out. And such an ecosystem must be balanced if it’s to be viable. It is no accident that every ecosystem involves predators of some sort. For example, recently the Canadian authorities started reintroducing wolves into the wild in Canada. Why? Because in the absence of these predators the caribou herds were over populating because there was no one to pick off the diseased and the aged. And as a result they were over grazing and therefore dying of starvation! The predators actually enhanced the survivability and the health of the caribou herds on which they preyed, so that predators are an essential part of an ecosystem. In a world without predators, the insects would soon take over, since there would be nothing to eat them, and all the animals would soon die because all the vegetation would be consumed by insects. And once the insects had consumed all the vegetation, they would die off as well. So any viable ecosystem needs to have predation in it in order to succeed.
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Reconciling animals and suffering
by Pacopoolio inwe know that christians generally go through ridiculous mental voodoo to explain why a benevolent god allows human suffering, and none of it makes any sense, or is filled with bunk logic.
that's what happens when you try and retrofit a jewish "god is good and evil" religion into a benevolent religion.. .
one of the biggest "trips" to a jw/christian in continuing this line of thought is asking them why god would create animals simply to suffer and die, then, after they try to blame everything on adam (whose brain god supposedly created, and who put him into the exact situation that had an influence on that brain to cause him to sin).
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raymond frantz
I had the same problem until I read this .It might not solve all your questions but definetely sheds light to why whould a benevolant God let animals suffer ,let me know what you think:
In his book Nature Red in Tooth and Claw, Michael Murray explains on the basis of neurological studies that there is an ascending three-fold hierarchy of pain awareness in nature:
Level 3: Awareness that one is oneself in pain
Level 2: Mental states of pain
Level 1: Aversive reaction to noxious stimuliOrganisms which are not sentient, that is, have no mental life, display at most Level 1 reactions. Insects, worms, and other invertebrates react to noxious stimuli but lack the neurological capacity to feel pain. Their avoidance behavior obviously has a selective advantage in the struggle for survival and so is built into them by natural selection. The experience of pain is thus not necessary for an organism to exhibit aversive behavior to contact that may be injurious. Thus when your friend asks, “If you beat an animal, wouldn't it try to avoid the source of pain so that way 'it' wouldn't suffer? Isn't that a form of 'self-awareness?'," you can see that such aversive behavior doesn’t even imply second order pain awareness, much less third order awareness. Avoidance behavior doesn’t require pain awareness, and the neurological capacities of primitive organisms aren’t sufficient to support Level 2 mental states.
Level 2 awareness arrives on the scene with the vertebrates. Their nervous systems are sufficiently developed to have associated with certain brain states mental states of pain. So when we see an animal like a dog, cat, or horse thrashing about or screaming when injured, it is irresistible to ascribe to them second order mental states of pain. It is this experience of animal pain that forms the basis of the objection to God’s goodness from animal suffering. But notice that an experience of Level 2 pain awareness does not imply a Level 3 awareness. Indeed, the biological evidence indicates that very few animals have an awareness that they are themselves in pain.
Level 3 is a higher-order awareness that one is oneself experiencing a Level 2 state. Your friend asks, “How could an animal not be aware of their suffering if they're yelping/screaming out of pain?" Brain studies supply the remarkable answer. Neurological research indicates that there are two independent neural pathways associated with the experience of pain. The one pathway is involved in producing Level 2 mental states of being in pain. But there is an independent neural pathway that is associated with being aware that one is oneself in a Level 2 state. And this second neural pathway is apparently a very late evolutionary development which only emerges in the higher primates, including man. Other animals lack the neural pathways for having the experience of Level 3 pain awareness. So even though animals like zebras and giraffes, for example, experience pain when attacked by a lion, they really aren’t aware of it.
To help understand this, consider an astonishing analogous phenomenon in human experience known as blind sight. The experience of sight is also associated biologically with two independent neural pathways in the brain. The one pathway conveys visual stimuli about what external objects are presented to the viewer. The other pathway is associated with an awareness of the visual states. Incredibly, certain persons, who have experienced impairment to the second neural pathway but whose first neural pathway is functioning normally, exhibit what is called blind sight. That is to say, these people are effectively blind because they are not aware that they can see anything. But in fact, they do “see” in the sense that they correctly register visual stimuli conveyed by the first neural pathway. If you toss a ball to such a person he will catch it because he does see it. But he isn’t aware that he sees it! Phenomenologically, he is like a person who is utterly blind, who doesn’t receive any visual stimuli. Obviously, as Michael Murray says, it would be a pointless undertaking to invite a blind sighted person to spend an afternoon at the art gallery. For even though he, in a sense, sees the paintings on the walls, he isn’t aware that he sees them and so has no experience of the paintings.
Now neurobiology indicates a similar situation with respect to animal pain awareness. All animals but the great apes and man lack the neural pathways associated with Level 3 pain awareness. Being a very late evolutionary development, this pathway is not present throughout the animal world. What that implies is that throughout almost the entirety of the long history of evolutionary development, no creature was ever aware of being in pain.
Viewed theologically, this discovery magnifies the mercy and goodness of God. God has shielded almost the entire animal kingdom throughout its history from an awareness of being in pain! For those of us who are pet owners and lovers of animals, this is a tremendous comfort and a cause of praise to God for His goodness and wondrous, even ingenious, care of creation. Who would have guessed that God had done such a thing? These neurological insights, documented by Murray, greatly reduce the force of the problem of evil posed by animal suffering.
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2014-06-01 Coordinator of the body of elders ---NEWS BOE---
by WatchTower87 ininstruction: press the 'skip ad' button top right, you should then see the download screen more easily.
no virus ;-).
pdf : http://adf.ly/pkuhp.
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raymond frantz
of course that begs the question ,"are there any curent govering body members over the age of 80?"
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Two major British Newspapers cover Jehovah's Witness paedophilia case today
by raymond frantz intwo major british newspapers ,mirror and independent cover today a paedophilia case where the convicted paedophile was given permission to interogatte his victims!
the charity comission ,the official organization monitoring charities in britain commented in negative way and expressed concerns for the ongoing inability of jw policies to address this issue.
another major issue of concern is that the charity commision is expressing concern about that particular congragation not for the watchtower headquarters .is this the beginning of things to come ?
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raymond frantz
Two major British newspapers ,Mirror and Independent cover today a paedophilia case where the convicted paedophile was given permission to interogatte his victims! The Charity Comission ,the official organization monitoring Charities in Britain commented in negative way and expressed concerns for the ongoing inability of JW policies to address this issue. Another major issue of concern is that the Charity Commision is expressing concern about that particular congragation not for the Watchtower Headquarters .Is this the beginning of things to come ? The local elders will be the ones to blame instead of the govering body ? It looks like their legally distancing from resposibility is taking place and the transfering of blame to the local cult leaders (elders) has began. Enjoy your prison sentences !
http://jwdoctrine.com/convicted-paidophile-allowed-interogate-victims-britain/
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Jehovah's Witnesses family struck by lightning in Germany
by raymond frantz inhttp://jwdoctrine.com/family-jehovahs-witnesses-struck-lightning-germany/.
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If your not baptized in the name of the father, son and holy spirit. was your baptism official
by goingthruthemotions inmatt 28:19 "go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the father and the son and the holy spirit,.
i don't ever remember hearing at my baptism nor any other baptism of a jw.
the person giving the baptism talk or person doing the dunking saying that i/we are baptized in the name of the father, son and holy spirit.. so i have come to the conclusion that my/our baptism's are not official.
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raymond frantz
this document is called the Didache ,dated 80-120 A.D.
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If your not baptized in the name of the father, son and holy spirit. was your baptism official
by goingthruthemotions inmatt 28:19 "go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the father and the son and the holy spirit,.
i don't ever remember hearing at my baptism nor any other baptism of a jw.
the person giving the baptism talk or person doing the dunking saying that i/we are baptized in the name of the father, son and holy spirit.. so i have come to the conclusion that my/our baptism's are not official.
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raymond frantz
blondie ,this is the Oneness Theology argument. Should we baptize in the name of Jesus or the name of the Father,Son and Holy Spirit .It would seem that both are correct ,"Jesus baptism" was the baptism in the name of the "Father,Son and Holy Spirit". Hoe do we know that to be the right explanation ? Because a document ,extra bibblical has been found dating from the first century that confirms the fact that Christians were baptized in the name of the 3 entities ,Father ,Son and Holy Spirit.
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BREAKING NEWS ! Pope denounces Jehovah's Witnesses
by raymond frantz inthe pope denounced jehovah's witnesses in a televized interview on sunday 11th may .read more here.
http://jwdoctrine.com/pope-denounces-jehovahs-witnesses/.
*if you make a friend on facebook ,my posts will appear on your timeline automatically .don't worry if you don't i will understand*.
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raymond frantz
Egyptian authorities use the Coptic Church as a consultant for minor sects.Talking about impartiality !!!!
